New Altec speaker boxes Part 2

[selmerdave]

Originally posted by Old Guy:
Dave- your starting argument makes no sense at all. Show me a world where inverses are always true.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OG, I'm not angry, no worries. I'm not saying it's true *because* of the inverse, it's actually not the inverse but the very same principle. Your comment was that the mind will trick you into hearing what you want to hear, and I'm saying that for that very reason claims that there are no audible differences between wires are no better founded than claims that there are. When one says that they don't hear the difference between zip cord and Nordost wire, why couldn't that be because their mind is telling them not to hear a difference, perhaps out of disgust for the price of the latter? How would we know?

Dave

[selmerdave]

I did just read the Roger Russell article, and found nothing illuminating or new there. Same argument made.

Dave

[Old Guy]

Dave- This is my last comment- it's been proven the brain tricks you into what you want to hear.

But if there is nothing measurable, and nothing heard..it's over.

Frankly there are things measurable. As Roger points out, some insulations are better than others. Generally that's the problem, not the copper.

A lot of what is going on is probably semantics, we aren't arguing that all wire sounds alike for instance.

But I just plain choose not to believe complaints not substatiable by research.

I did say way back at the beginning of all this- if something sounds better to you, by all means use it. But that is personal, not fact.

[Old Guy]

Sorry- claims not substantiable by research.

People are entitled to opinions- but if they can't be backed up they should never be presented as flat statements.

And the truth is, all research has shown no difference between good wires.

I never said no difference between all wires.

[bigjunglejim]

I finally had a chance to read the Old Guy's recommended article at the following link; http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Good stuff Old Guy. Well worth the read. I agree with the findings in the article.

Because I'll be selling speaker boxes to a more "high end" user, perception will be very important. I'd rather pay for wire that's not any better than what's necessary just to present an image. I'm sure 16ga lamp cord would do the trick for the connection between the transducers and the speaker box terminals but, to satisfy the perceptional needs of consumers, I'll use a more "upscale" wire. When I was a salesman, I was taught to "sell the sizzle, not the steak". In this case, good enough isn't good enough when people are looking for something special. I like the way it was put in the wire article......

"Despite the effectiveness of Gordon's cable demonstration and the truth about speaker wire, people visiting the McIntosh room at the shows, who had not experienced the cable demonstration, were disturbed that we were using ordinary heavy zip cord instead of one of the popular brands of speaker wire. Instead of listening to the McIntosh speakers and electronics, they recalled "bad" things they had been told about "common" speaker wire and this promoted questions about the "inferior" wire being used. When we changed the wire to a popular brand of wire, customers were happy with the setup, and directed their attention to the McIntosh equipment".

Similarly, I will let the consumer focus on the box and the speaker and remove almost all focus on the wires used to connect them. If someone wants a "ROLEX" wire or a better wire then I've installed, they are free to change the wire AFTER THEY BUY THE BOX. For those who will be satisfied with a high end "TIMEX" wire, they will be happy with the wires I've used. For those who are OK with a "common time piece" type wire, they will not object to the higher priced wire used. I welcome other's opinions and comments.

[Old Guy]

Sounds like a good plan. I'm sure there are some reasonbly priced brands out there.

As you said, I wouldn't go to the expense of "Top shelf" if for no other reason than some may not want it. And heck, if they are gonna change it anyway.

[Old Guy]

Dave- your starting argument makes no sense at all. Show me a world where inverses are always true.

I'm not a trained shot- I can't hit the target- therefore a trained shooter can always hit the target? Nonsense.

The rest of your argument goes downhill from there.

Dismissive? Only when presented with completely unscientific tests.

Tests do only one thing- eliminate garbage claims.
If you can hear the difference in the wire in a real test, then by all means use it.

But to do meaningless tests and make claims based on them doesn't advance knowledge.

Sorry I made you mad- that was not my intent.

But as far as wire- I'm agnostic- show me and I will believe. Nobody has ever been able to show me..

I'm not saying all wire is the same. I just want to throw out the garbage claims.

Again- read Roger's postings at that link- he points out a lot of things to be wary of when buying wire. Yes, if you go down to the store and buy two different pieces of $2 wire, one can sound better than the other. If that is what you said, I'm in 100% agreement with you.

If I sound aggressive- I'm no where near as aggressive as a wire industry that rips people off for millions every year. Yes, millions.

Sorry if you got caught in the crossfire- very few percent of my post was aimed at you.

[thinking]

Given the emotional reactions to the wire question, I'm thinking that if I were marketing the boxes, I would install the binding posts, and let the buyer supply their own wire. I tend to judge the whole based on small details like this.
If the wire is more expensive than I would have picked, maybe I'm paying more for the whole box than I would like.
If the wire is cheaper than I would have picked, maybe some other things were cheaper in the construction.
Just my two cents worth.

[thinking]

Might as well comment on one of the original questions as well, if I were building the boxes, I would make any reasonable improvements that didn't sacrifice the original design. For example, of there are better materials, construction techniques, use them. If I want an original, I'll have to buy an original, you're not going to be able to fulfill my nostalgia for that. But if i'm looking for a great box without having to build it myself from scratch, then you'd have nitch that is possibly looking to be filled.

[bowtie427ss]

If the wire is more expensive than I would have picked, maybe I'm paying more for the whole box than I would like.
If the wire is cheaper than I would have picked, maybe some other things were cheaper in the construction.
Just my two cents worth.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not to be inflammatory, but we could conjecture about individual components all day long.

Spring clips or binding posts?

Isolation spikes or a wooden riser?

Fiberglass or polyfill damping?

I think Jim's idea is sound, to use wire that will carry adequate current, and meets or exceeds the spec used in original Altec boxes. Surely good enough to last the average listener a lifetime, but inexpensive and inconsequential enough for the "tweakers" to replace on a whim with their highly coveted, expensive, de-ionized, hydrogen cooled, boutique wire.

Buying new speakers less internal wiring, to me would be much like buying a new car less tires.

Maybe a better suggestion would be for Jim to offer his buyers some "options" with regard to wire, terminations, and crossover components.

just my .02